| | 你们就知道骂共产党,我爸要不是共产党的干部, 我有钱来美国吗? 来美国才明白, 还是社会主义好, 象我这样不学无术的人, 在美国是真他妈的难混啊! 要不是我爸让我一定要坚持在美国,给他们留一条以后出逃的后路,我早就回中国享受花天酒地去啦. |
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| 中国还没那么十全十美。国人对他人、对弱势群体、对别的民族有多少爱心？
OK, Now I understand what you resent is not Chinese government, what you feel inferior with are Chinese people and Chinese culture. Let me tell you, Chinese culture and Chinese people are as good as any people and culture in this world. I feel so sorry for you not being able to DISCOVER your own people are as good as any people and your nation is as good as any nation after living in the west for so many years.
我们是怎样虐待子孙后代要仰赖的环境的？我们的煤矿每年要死多少人？社会最底层人民的生活改善赶得上中国经济发展的速度吗？
For your information, it is not 我们 developed from scratch Industrialization which IS the reason for 虐待子孙后代要仰赖的环境, 煤矿每年要死多少人, 社会最底层人民的生活改善赶得上中国经济发展的速度. Study how many years it took European to have their today’s established system. So be proud of your people and your nation and have faith in your people because it is the foundation for a nation to progress.
中国用得着我们的热情的地方还少吗？
Differentiate internal and external affairs. Yes we should and thank God we do have the passion to feel angry and against those westerners calling our people “goons and thugs”.
中国用得着我们的热情的地方还少吗？
书读的太多了， 你怎么像个唐僧一样？ | |
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| 胡涣 评论于：2008-04-17 10:53:29 [回复评论] | |  回复llbyw的评论:
按兵不动？中国还没那么十全十美。国人对他人、对弱势群体、对别的民族有多少爱心？我们是怎样虐待子孙后代要仰赖的环境的？我们的煤矿每年要死多少人？社会最底层人民的生活改善赶得上中国经济发展的速度吗？
中国用得着我们的热情的地方还少吗？
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| The following letter is from an American living in Shanghai.
Family & Friends,
Watching BBC and CNN coverage of all the protests surrounding the Olympic Torch Relay and viewing the Chinese coverage of the same events, I realize how differently Chinese and Westerners are viewing the same events. The Western press seems to think that the Chinese people have no awareness of the international protests because of their censored news media. This is not true. They are very aware of the anti-China protests and they are deeply offended.
This morning I opened my MSN Messenger account which is actively used in China for business and personal messaging. I was surprised to see a heart logo with the word "CHINA" beside the name of almost every Chinese person on my long contact list. Why do almost all Chinese want to express their love of China now? It seems to have something to do with the global Olympic Torch protests and the perceived anti-China bias in the international media. Most Chinese are very upset and believe the China bashing has gone too far.
Currently, many Chinese are organizing to boycott the French mega-store chain Carrefour in China on May 1st. Why Carrefour? The ant-China protests are seen as having begun in Paris. The symbol of the failure of other nations to respect China (especially the French) has become the widely distributed photograph of a protester trying to wrest the Olympic Torch from the hands of a handicapped Olympic Torch Bearer in a wheelchair in the Paris procession. Chinese people are angry at France because they believe the French government failed to protect the torch and China's honor. They cannot imagine that this kind of thing could happen if the French government seriously wanted to protect the torch.
As you can see, Chinese Nationalism is now burning brighter than the Olympic Torch.
What about Tibet? Chinese know that Tibet has been part of China for hundreds of years. The Qing Emperors were Tibetan Buddhists and the Tibetan Buddhist temples they built are still standing around Beijing. Chinese know that every major country in the world, including the US government, recognizes Tibet as part of China. When they see "Free Tibet" banners flying on the Golden Gate Bridge, they wonder why the United States suddenly is trying to promote successionism. They know that the main casualties in the recent riots in Tibet were not native Tibetans but Han Chinese and Muslim Chinese traders who had their shops attacked by angry Tibetan mobs. They really do not understand why some Tibetans would so deeply resent the influx of Han Chinese into Tibet and would regard Chinese led economic development as Cultural Imperialism. Are Chinese all brain-washed? Well, that would be one way to dismiss a people who have a very different world view than Westerners. China is the most secular country in the world. They do not really appreciate spirituality and religion. It is a very materialistic society. Tibet was desperately poor in the 50's. There is no doubt that the Chinese led economic development has dramatically raised the per capita GDP and increased other objective measurements of societal well-being like average lifespan. They cannot imagine that Tibetans might resent economic development. For most Chinese, a new Chinese shopping mall at the base of the Potala would be a good thing.
Now, I should say that even my gentle critique of Chinese policies in Tibet infuriates some of my Chinese friends. They are so tired of foreigners who think they understand China better than they do and want to intervene in China's internal business. Let me quote a bit from a friend of mine who is fairly articulate in English and often critical of Chinese government policy. I have lifted portions of a long email dialogue we were having and slightly edited it.
I gotta say, most young Chinese believe foreigners and their protests are either downright racist or just making shallow gestures on a self-proclaimed moral high ground convinced they're doing us a favor but sadly incapable to realize how condescending they are to assume the Chinese are helpless. It's frustratingly imperialistic and, what's worse, they don't even know it. Like millions of young Chinese either computer- or English-savvy, we are aware of what's going on. We don't need to be saved by people from the other end of the world. We can fight for our future from within. I'm doing that everyday in my conversations to raise the awaressness of the plights of the farmers. And personally I don't welcome any foreigners "fighting" for my rights either. I'm well educated, and I deem foreign protests an offensive vote of no confidence on my individuality and ability to change my country for the better. It is personal. I'm making a difference, and I'm capable of it. I don't need foreigners' protests. What did they ever do other than keeping themselves feel better and the Chinese public infuriated? Call me ungrateful, but I just resent it.
As for the Olympics: I certainly can accept the protests against the commies. If the US was hosting the Olympics, a torch relay would too spark worldwide protests for the humanitarian crisis in Iraq and Afganistan. Years of limited freedom of demonstration make it much harder for Chinese to accept the fact that things they love might be publicly spat on like what the torch relay went through in Paris. Like almost all my compatriots, I was outraged when I saw the picture of a girl on a wheelchair bullied by a protestor trying to grab her torch in Paris, but people should have the right to protest.
But, I don't care whatever reasons they might have, I absolutely smell a blanket condemnation of my motherland, the Chinese people and their culture. During the relay in Paris, old French ladies shouted to the Chinese students supporting the Olympics "Murderers" and "Go back to where you're from!" Yesterday CNN called us (not the commies, us the people) goons and thugs. And I don't need Pelosi again with her rant against "Chinese in Tibet." Already to many Chinese, this whole thing has been a plot against my race from the get-go. I haven't jumped onto the wagon yet, but more and more evidence is pushing me there.
As for the Olympic boycott, well ... Most ordinary Chinese citizens, overseas Chinese and our diaspora want the Games to be successful, so if the West is hell-bent on alienating 1.4 billion human beings, go ahead. I hope one day my people would wake up and realize we really don't have to desperately crave for validation from foreigners any more. *** end of quote
In another era, we sent thousands of missionaries to China to save the heathen Chinese. These days we are trying to convert the Chinese to our Western concept of Freedom and Democracy. There are not many Christians in China today and I suspect there will not be many proponents of Jeffersonian Democracy in the future. China is on the move and they have their own vision of the future. The 20th Century was the American Century. The 21st Century may be the China Century. The Beijing Olympics is intended to celebrate China's grand entrance onto the world stage. It is probably the most politicized Olympics since Nuremberg in '36. Western nations would do well to learn more about Chinese culture and temper our criticism with a little understanding. Our protests will likely result in many unintended effects.
Best, | |
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| 回复胡涣的评论:
胡老哥，俺知道你是基督门徒，你是不是信的走火入魔自比耶稣了？人家耶稣大义凛然英勇九义，可人家有上帝老爸照着，人耶稣知道最后还能复活，咱中国一大家子人让人羞辱欺负，如果咱们按兵不动，最后让人灭了，咋办呢?
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| 回复紫萸香慢的评论:
"所以如果达赖真是政府所说的“人面兽心的豺狼”，他早号召藏人造反了"
忽视了达赖领导藏人造反失败后离开的中国. 之后文的武的闹了好多次. 所以达赖想口头表示不喜欢暴力行动也不说明问题. 非不想而是实力不行. | |
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| 回复紫萸香慢的评论:
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最后政府迫于强大舆论对弱势方进行道歉赔偿，从而开始治愈创伤，达成和解的过程。最近加拿大政府对当年征收华人人头税的道歉赔偿，美国对二战期间强迫关押 日裔美国人的陪罪，都是这样的例子。当然，德国总理在犹太人屠杀纪念馆前的一跪和战后自愿非自愿的巨额赔偿，也许未能彻底消除这两个民族间过去的血海深 仇，但至少大大减低了犹太人对德国人的敌意。
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以上的都是在赶尽杀绝后的例子，与XZ没可比性。而都是在对方构不成威胁的时候谈和道歉的。
XZ是列强的工具。看看美国对俄国周边的军事紧逼。看看在阿富汗的第一个建筑，空军基地！
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| | Good article. Please keep writing. | |
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| 5r 评论于：2008-04-17 00:04:03 [回复评论] | | | 好 文章， 使我们从不同的角度看问题，避免盲目。希望各位能够尊重别人的想法，你可以提出不同的意见来讨论，但不要用恶言去攻击别人，你尊重别人别人才尊重你。大家 都是兄弟，别再回到斗斗斗的文革时代，可怜的中国人始终在窝里斗。怎么没见到加拿大的民众为了魁北克的独立问题闹得你死我活？ | |
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| 缘言 评论于：2008-04-16 23:56:59 [回复评论] | | 回 复紫萸香慢的评论: 基本上同意您的观点，只是达赖喇嘛并不像圣人（请看我先前的留言）。而多方证据表明，这次事件看起来是事先计划好的。我同意前面几位先生的意见，应给中国 政府一些时间来改变，相对于西方世界的发展史，这么短时间是不是有些太苛求了？正面的压力是有益的，但如果居心不正（西方某些势力），就会适得其反了。这 使我们大部分华人都不愿意看到的。
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| 缘言 评论于：2008-04-16 23:39:57 [回复评论] | | 回 复cheng1616的评论: 博主其实是好心，话有些不中听，但理是有的，过激行为只会适得其反，现在是讲理的时候，而不是诉诸暴力的时候，包括语言暴力。博主和支持者们，是深受了西 方文化中“博爱，平等”的人文价值的熏陶。这是十分可贵的，希望大家讨论时看到对方的初衷。这正是我们所需要的。要说服对方，首先要明确论点，用逻辑和事 实证据说话。这样才能团结大多数人。“团结”是中国人最需要的。博主的反对者们要表达的“仁爱”的思维不是什么时候都合适的。宋襄公的“仁义”大旗就是最 好的例子。政治不都是高尚的游戏。
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| 回复缘言的评论:
民族和解，世界大同，是一个很好的理想，但不能靠忘记历史。只有正视历史，吸取教训，世界才能进步。看看近几十年的趋势，和解的例子不是没有，但也不多。 一般地说，都有这样的模式：弱势一方（一般也是受害较多一方）积极抗争（非暴力为主），强势一方先是少数有识之士进行反省，近而扩大到民众舆论，最后政府 迫于强大舆论对弱势方进行道歉赔偿，从而开始治愈创伤，达成和解的过程。最近加拿大政府对当年征收华人人头税的道歉赔偿，美国对二战期间强迫关押日裔美国 人的陪罪，都是这样的例子。当然，德国总理在犹太人屠杀纪念馆前的一跪和战后自愿非自愿的巨额赔偿，也许未能彻底消除这两个民族间过去的血海深仇，但至少 大大减低了犹太人对德国人的敌意。
所以要谈和解，应该是强势的中国政府首先进行反思。其实达赖喇嘛表明放弃藏独二十多年了，愿意同中国对话。中国政府对他伸出的橄榄枝不理不睬，只想把他慢 慢拖死，西藏一有风吹草动，马上找人把达赖大骂一顿。而一般藏人又逢达赖为神明，中央这样的态度，这样的侮辱他们的神明，两个民族能和解吗？
又：我在四川时，经常听去过藏区的人讲藏民是多么虔诚和“冥顽不化”。班禅进藏时，藏民把它的车一路从机场台到了拉萨，以示尊敬，而达赖的地位又高过班 禅.他们都说，藏民都愿为达喇死。所以如果达赖真是政府所说的“人面兽心的豺狼”，他早号召藏人造反了，那时西藏真会是血流成河，就像中东一样，即使赢不 了，也会搞得一片狼藉，中国也会消耗掉大量的人力和财富去打仗。籍此，我相信达赖是一个慈悲为怀的人。 | |
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| 说得好，搂主的意思是，不管别人怎么欺负你， 欺负你的国家，都要做缩头乌龟，谁要敢，反抗就是亵渎民意/
我们身居海外，这次比谁都看得明白，完全是自发的从海外而起，中国政府帕民族情绪影响奥运，开始还想压制， 后来就顺水推舟了。真不明白是你瞎了严，还是你太听你主子的话，除来找骂，或者借此现实你的与众不同。 | |
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| | http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CEFD61538F931A35753C1A96E958260 | |
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| from
http://blog.wenxuecity.com/blogview.php?date=200804&postID=24982
海外华人是唯一的受益者
在历史上，每次美国和中国之间产生磨擦，两国政府都竞争着从海外华人之中抓对方的间谍嫌疑，以狠狠惩罚对方间谍的方式，打狗给主人看，使对方难堪。因为中 国人向来都是逆来顺受，是一个不团结，不会保护自己的民族。但是在这次西藏暴动引发的事件中，中国人被逼着学会了愤怒，学会了抗议，学会了让社会听到自己 声音的方法。这一自发的变化，赢得了西方政府和媒体的重视，同时赢得了中国政府的尊重。
有一次，一个在美国生活了很多年的美籍华人回国，她先被中国政府以美国间谍罪关了起来，后在在美国政府的抗议下被中国政府从监狱里放了出来，并驱除出境。 谁能想到，等到她回到美国，很快就被美国政府以中国间谍的罪名抓了起来。现在好了，西方政府和媒体把中国人逼的无路可退，而使中国人绝路逢生，参与政治， 从此喊出了第一声抗议的口号，打出了第一个示威的标语。以后，看看有谁还敢欺负一个团结起来的，有组织的团体，只要能有1%的选票，就没有人敢轻视这个政 治势力。要面对他们亲手缔造的这个有投票权的新兴政治势力，美国政府和媒体将来恐怕也不敢随便信口雌黄，大放厥词。
多少年来，美国人和西方各国的人民在人权和西藏问题上都只听反对中国的一面之词，所以造就了一大批藏独的支持者。现在，在西藏问题上有了争论，有了对立面，他们就有机会听听不同的声音，看看不同的意见，也就不容易轻易受媒体的蒙蔽和操纵，会比较客观做出自己的判断。
结论
这个煽动藏独，反对奥运，与中国为敌的游戏，是一个谁参与谁倒霉的游戏。这一点，连头脑简单的布什和西藏精神领袖达赖喇嘛都看得出来，他们都躲得远远的不想背黑锅。但是西方国家和某些媒体居然还有人乐此不疲，没完没了地纠缠不休，他们真是比布什还傻，比藏独还笨。
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| 回复jwayne_1的评论:你就别找骂了，藏独分子。
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| We need to clarify our main issues here.
1. if we need to leave a testimony on the current Dalai Lama, firstly we have to clarify him against if he is religious figure or a political figure. We all know he is making use of innocent religion for his political power. This also boils down to a question: Does American upport a religious leader to be their president? You know the answer.
2. Does the whole Tibetan issue have anything to do with Chinese political system? No! No matter its political system and its human rights status, Chinese gov will do all it can to keep Tibet from separation. Chinese Gov has its law against separation. Lincoln had shown us already what American would do againt separation. So whatever Chinese Gov did in controling the recent Tibetan separation riot, it is lawful and nothing against human rights.
3. Is there human right issue in China? Yes, as any other places in the world. It needs to be improved vastly.
However, in certain areas, Chinese human right has been doing much better than Western countries, especially USA, such as treating its ethnic groups, looking at what problems the native Americans are facing, and then go to Tibet to find out with your own eyes.
4. So what is the problem? the problem is that USA chose China as its enemy. Note! it is NOT China who wants any enemy! What USA follows is "my enemy's enemy is my friend"! Think of Bin Laden, he was a friend of CIA before. Anyway, it is western value system and tradition to step others down for money. If you really care about
Tibetans, please do not make use of them, do not sacrifice them for any political and economic gain.
5. Think of how much freedom have Americans lost since 911. You can't even make a joke in the airport, etc.
Freedom and rights are a relative and dependent issue. If your country and nation is powerful, rich and secured, then you will have more freedom and rights. But if you are facing threats, then things will be tightened up for
security measure. The exact same also applies to China. Once some powerful giants open their mouths, show their teeth and roar at it, China will tighten up. China will be a free world one day if it is developed and confident and secured. Let's give China some time if you really care about Tibetan people.
胡涣, 是否想在人堆里玩不一样？玩错了时间对象。为何会玩错了时间对象？ 自己给各答案吧！ | |
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| 胡涣,在这里卖小聪明太无聊了。
"Nobody can hurt you without your consent."，用错地方！这用于个人偏见和无知的想法，可以。但不能用于集体有组织的污蔑，攻击和歧视。比如这次西方有预谋的行动，意在反华，是关系到民族的生存空间和祖国的发展。
你对“狗于华人不得入内”作何感想。这不仅仅是个人偏见，而是歧视。你把CNN的反华言论和这次西方的伤心病看作仅仅是个人偏见，所以你以为几十万同胞凑在一起跟空气打架。你肯定也已看到几十万同胞的直接关系到自己民生的行动是很成功和有效的。
“胜人者有力，自胜者强”。印第安人是自胜强者了？你到底想干啥？你如此的低劣的比喻定论就像是跟CNN学的。
种族是个很复杂的事宜。而你的很情绪化的算风点火，太滑稽了。再贴一下同样情绪化wenjuyuan的贴，望你能受益：
"
中国历史上就这德性，英国人不就贩点儿鸦片嘛，老百姓就不高兴了，反洋人，也不先把自己政府反了（议和团反得不彻底）。日本人小国岛民，想占点儿土地，中 国人就抗日救国，孰不懂要心胸宽阔。到共产党执政就更差了，美国人又没侵略我们，遽然全国动员抗美援朝，後来又抗美援越，更离谱。更又为西藏那几个和尚这 多华人大惊小怪，过几天一定又为新疆老维子不定闹成什麽样子。这帮
"goons and thugs"，从来就能正确对待东西列强.
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| | 回复缘言的评论: 不错的文章. DALAI实在是不好对付, 打不得骂不得也留不得. 大家还是耐心看胡JINTAO和DALAI玩太极吧. | |
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